Great argument, really debunked all my bullshit there
Perhaps you should get your military education from something other than video games?
?
Where’d that come from, i didnt cite any games, and as far as I know there aren’t even any games about the Spanish civil war .
If your such a military history expert could you point me to a civil war where an anarchist faction won and wasn’t eventually defeated by authoritarians?
I read appendix 6 and even gave some quotes from the source showing my point. I’m not gonna read the whole thing in a day to reply to a comment, most of it is his war memoir and has little to do with the discussion. Appendix 6 was the one talking about propaganda that op directed me to.
Yeah, the meme is accurate. After the right has been defeated the anarchists and authoritarians will turn on each other, both sides understand this. The blacks didn’t defeat the reds because of lack of will or a naive commitment to left unity, they lost because they lacked the discipline and organizational capacity to win a civil war.
Went through the Wikipedia for it and read appendix 6. I still stand by my opinion that the anarchists were doomed by either fascist or communist hands due to there lack of discipline. Yeah everyone was aligned against the anarchists, but everyone was aligned against the bolsheviks in 1917 and they were still able to win a civil war and establish a government.
Most of the appendix I read was litigating the conflicts in Barcelona in May and how the communist press distorted and lied about what happened. I’m willing to accept the communists did a coup and tried to cover it up and blame it on the POUM. The question is whether that was the right strategic move given the circumstances, and Orwell recognizes this:
Of course it is arguable that the C.N.T. workers ought to have handed over the Telephone Exchange without protest. One’s opinion here will be governed by one’s attitude on the question of centralized government and working-class control.
And elsewhere he emphasizes the difference between communists and anarchists:
So, roughly speaking, the alignment of forces was this. On the one side the C.N.T.-F.A.I., the P.O.U.M., and a section of the Socialists, standing for workers’ control: on the other side the Right-wing Socialists, Liberals, and Communists, standing for centralized government and a militarized army.
In a war you need centralized military control to win, and war has never been won without a commander and a hierarchy below them controlling the troops. Orwell seems to be of the mind that a revolutionary discipline can be achieved through a sincere belief for a cause. This makes sense for a foreign volunteer who signed up for there belief in socialism, but your average person isn’t motivated enough by ideology to voluntarily risk there life.
This is shown by the anarchists unwillingness to relieve Madrid. By the time of the POUM purge the Republicans were losing the war. What needed to be done was a mass conscription drive and then a push to relieve Madrid. The anarchists couldn’t do that because conscription was authoritarian and a democratic militia is never going to vote to leave there defensive lines and go on the offensive as that would mean more danger and casualties. So they were content to man the front in aragon and not much else. Orwells account shows this.
I share Orwells love for the worker control and true democracy of Barcelona during the civil war, but I don’t think that system can survive the realities of a civil war. I’d love to be proven wrong but I haven’t found any evidence to the contrary. If you have one please let me know, it’d restore my faith in the ability of man to overcome oppression.
There were some in the first gulf war. People forget but iraq had the sixth largest airforce at the time and were able to shoot down a couple American planes before being overwhelmed and fleeing to Iran.
The fascists won because
They had more foreign aid from nazi Germany and fascist Italy. The luftwaffa especially was a key advantage for the fascists as they had air superiority and were able to bomb republican positions with little cost. If France, the UK and the US had a backbone and sent aid the Republicans would have won.
They had more military expertise and discipline. Pluralism and anarchism are great in peace time but you can’t win a war with them. The anarchist system was a wonder to behold in Catalonia, but they were never going to be able to spread it to the rest of Spain because they were never able to win a battle after the opening skirmishes in aragon. Say what you will about the communists, they had discipline and had proven there system can win a civil war in russia. If only they had a trotsky and lenin to competently lead the fight against fascism.
Did the communists go too hard on repressing the anarchists? Yes
Did the communist have a valid reason to suppress a movement about not following orders and leadership during a war? Yes
Don’t they know, trump did CLEAN COAL , all the coal is clean because of CLEAN COAL and you can’t get black lung from CLEAN COAL
Speaking for san francisco:
No
No
Yes, in March last year we passed a proposition exempting them from real estate transfer taxes
Yes, there’s a vacancy tax, but there’s a decent amount of exemptions so it only effects large multi unit buildings
No, but there aren’t really any strip malls in the city
He’s so used to being the boss and having everyone always laugh at his shitty jokes that he thinks he’s funny.
He’s not a politician and has no charisma or any way of getting people to do what he wants outside of ordering them to, which is why he’ll never do well in politics where building and maintaining relationships in your coalition is one of your main jobs.
The 1912 election of the sdp came close, and they probably would’ve taken over in a few years if the war didn’t happen. After WWI the sdp took over in the early years of weimar and while moderated since they split with the more radical communists, were still trying for social democracy which was pretty left at the time, it’s just there hands were tied by the treaty of Versailles. Can’t really institute social programs when all of your government revenue is going to repay France.
Not if you measure it by how many shiny objects a small group has access to.
They just took down the post too, which had no mentions of nazis, so I think they just don’t want this subject brought up, just like ml doesn’t want Chinese human rights violations brought up.
do you know what “from the river to the sea” means?
Yeah, it means the same thing as a song I was taught in elementary school:
From sea to shining sea,
Let freedom ring
It means let everyone in this land enjoy freedom. I suppose if your a cynical bastard you could say it means free of natives, but I don’t think that’s what the elementary schoolers, and everyone else who sings the song means.
violently protesting, threatening taff and fucking up university property is not okay. That’s stuff that lands you in prison.
Again they didn’t do any of that stuff, at worse if the accusations are true they only tried to stop people who did that from getting arrested. How many people are getting deported for just resisting arrest?
Yeah, cause in a nazis belief system I should be enslaved or killed. There belief system is an existential threat to me, so yeah I’m not gonna cry if they’re further away from me.
Mahmouds belief system is only an existential threat to the apartheid Israeli state.
Your comment:
for participating in violently occupying a university building, while threatening the staff with axes and metal
Makes it seem like they occupied the building and made violent threats, I was adding clarification that there is no evidence they did either.
If the accusations turn out to be true that doesn’t mean that they weren’t deported for protesting, that just means they found a legal excuse to do so. If a cop arrests a black guy wearing a black lives matter shirt for jaywalking, even if the guy was actually jaywalking that doesn’t mean the cop who arrested them wasnt racist.
We’re talking about motive here which is very hard to prove one way or the other. One thing you can look at though is whether the case looks to be getting special attention by the prosecutors when compared to similar cases. This looks to be the case as it seems this is the first time they’ve done this expedited deportation without charges for an EU citizen.
Then charge them with conspiracy to commit vandalism or whatever. They have so far shown no evidence that they entered the building, much less did any vandalism or threats, and no charges have been made.
If you allow people to be deported without due process then you’ve given the power of arbitrary deportation of anyone legally in the country to the state. Look at how this is going in the US, we sent someone to a Salvadoran gulag over a tattoo and now we can’t even get them back home.
Do you really want to set this precedent and give that power to the afd if/when they gain power?
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They have not been charged with anything related to that protest, and there is no evidence they even entered the building, much less threatened anyone.
How is 1 a half truth? It seems we agree, the western bourgeoisie democracies failed to provide aid to the Republicans while the fascists did. I guess I didn’t mention that the soviets gave aid, but not as much as the fascists so they had the advantage on that front.
Why would you say the civil war was lost then? I agree the fascist aid wasn’t decisive, and the Republicans could win in spite of it, but they didn’t. It wasn’t because the communist turned on the anarchists, the republicans were losing the war prior to that. The anarchists had ample time and supplies to martial an army and relieve Madrid but they never did, they were content to hold there lines in aragon and wait for Franco to mop up the basque country before turning on them because the fundamental military issue of anarchism, no one is going to vote to go on the offensive.
I’m not a tankie, I just recognize the military weakness of the anarchist cause, just as I recognize the communist weakness of devolving power. I recognize anarchists can’t win wars and communists can’t give up power once the war is won. History has shown both to be true in every scenario its come up. Understanding the weaknesses of both causes is necessary if we want to achieve liberation from oppression and exploitation.